Transcript: Targeting the Top End Consumers in India
I want to thank you for coming along to this presentation this afternoon. My name’s Clayton Kimpton and I’m NZTE’s regional director for India, Middle East and Africa which is a big region, but half of our team is based in India with BDM, or business development managers in Delhi based with the High Commission in the High Commission in Delhi; and the team based in the Consulate in Mumbai lead by Kevin McKenna who’s our Trade Commissioner and Consulate General in Mumbai. Daljit is one of the three Business Development Managers that we have in Mumbai working basically south India and Sri Lanka; also the Maldives but we haven’t had a lot of justification for visiting their recently. But if anyone here would like to do business in the Maldives I’ll look after that and then I can have a bidding from the business development managers as to who’s going to go with me.
I appreciate you coming along to talk about India. First of all, the structure of what we’d like to work through today. I’d like the session to be as interactive as possible. Having the great privilege of having Daljit and Kevin here means that we’ve got people available who can answer questions in a very useful and practical way because they’re dealing with getting businesses into India on a daily basis; they’re working with New Zealand companies trying to establish them and get good results.
We’ve been working with New Zealand companies in India for many years. India’s a fascinating market. We know it's if not the largest the second largest population in the world; it's growing. No one really knows exactly how many people there are in India, do they Daljit; it's a good guess. But it's a massive market on a sub-continent that is huge, with people who obviously are consumers; but also it's a hugely diverse market in terms of the wealth of the consumers as well.
As we’ve been working with New Zealand companies trying to crack the India market we’ve seen both successes and failures and often the failures outweigh the successes. As New Zealand moves further up the food chain in terms of high value premium product we know that Indian consumers want that product, but what we have been struggling with is how do we target that what we’ve called top end consumer in a way that is going to help deliver success for New Zealand companies moving into that market.
And so we instructed some agencies in India to go through and do a lot of market research about that top end consumer; where they are, how you get to them and how we can be successful. And so what the presentation is going through now is a summary of that research, really taking out the headline pointers that we’ve learnt. Hopefully this is going to assist you in doing business in India.
This is a great slide because that is 92 percent – is it 92 or 94 percent – of the retail markets that we are dealing with in India. In fact, this is probably more sophisticated than the majority of the outlets that we’re dealing with.
As I mentioned before India has an increasing appetite for what we sell; the issue for us is how do we find the person that’s looking to buy those products? A very small percentage hold most of the wealth; that’s not uncommon but it's over a diverse geographic area. More than 320million Indians speak English fluently; that’s of great benefit to us in New Zealand. A lot more Indians will speak some English; so is very much the language of business.
More than 60 billionaires; 250 million internet users; but said digital uptake is actually relatively slow. The biggest outlet for news and advertisements in India is still the print media.
Sixty nine percent live in rural areas. India’s got some of the largest cities in the world and we think of Mumbai and Delhi and how extremely large they are as cities but 69 percent of the population are not living in cities; so that already cuts down I guess the number of people in terms of the market that we’re going for; because as a rule you’re not selling your premium product in the rural centres of India.
More than 50 babies are born a minute; so you can do the math on that. The median age in India is 27 and that’s very, very low. Again, in terms of the demographic that you’re looking to sell to, understanding that median age is important. Five hundred million Indians are vegetarian. A lot of New Zealanders don’t quite get that. Vegetarianism isn’t a choice that I think I just won’t eat red meat; vegetarianism is a complete and utter lifestyle. It's probably most effectively or best exemplified by the fact that in some states, Maharashtra state and Gujarat, it is illegal to be in possession of beef. Not too many weeks ago in a rural area outside of Delhi a Muslim man was lynched by a crowd of Hindus because they believed he was eating meat. It isn’t actually against the law in Delhi but it caused them offence. That’s the level of vegetarianism that we’re talking about. I’m not saying that all Hindu’s would lynch someone but the level of adherence to vegetarianism is extreme.
One of the issues that we have Indians visiting New Zealand who are vegetarian they struggle with our understanding of vegetarianism quite significantly. They would prefer their meals were prepared in a kitchen that had no meat; whereas we’ll have a salad on the menu is often as far as it gets too.
Also, a lot of New Zealanders think vegetarians still eat fish, chicken and eggs, which isn’t necessarily the case either.
But because there’s 500 million it's an area that we really do have to understand in order to understand that Indian market.
In terms of the key findings of the research and I’m not going to go through every one of these, and I appreciate that this is a lot of information on the slide. For those who can’t necessarily see it all I will read out the words.
First of all, that Indian is home to 26 million top end consumers and that’s the very, very wealthy people. We’re not just saying middle class and up, this is very wealthy people; people who can afford probably their own plane. We know the richest man in India has how many stories is his house – 27 stories, so it's quite something.
[Six of them for cars alone]
We’re talking very, very wealthy. They are willing to spend on premium products. One example is whisky. India is the second or third largest market for Scottish whisky and that’s in spite of their being 150 percent tariff on whisky coming into New Zealand; so it's the second largest worldwide market for it despite a tariff of that size on the market.
This segment will spend a large amount of money on the premium products that they want to buy. They need to know about it and then they’ll want to buy it. They travel, they experience it overseas and they want to be able to get it in India.
The second is celebrations, indulgence and impulse drive a lot of the consumer demand. We tend to think around celebrations in New Zealand, Christmas in particular that’s when everyone will buy presents and we all complain that somehow we’re meant to spent money on Valentine’s Day and Halloween a few of these other things.
India does Christmas on steroids when it comes to Diwali and holly and all of these other celebrations; as well as Christmas. They will spend on food in particular huge amounts. Take a wedding; a wedding will go for at least five days. An enormous amount of money is spent on celebrations.
There have been a number of companies which have taken that particular fact to heart and created for instance a chocolate just for Diwali and the sales go through the roof if the product has been targeted at a particular celebration because that’s a very big driver for purchasing.
The Indian retail space is fragmented. You saw the picture I showed at the very beginning. I got the percentage wrong; only two percent of purchases happen in a supermarket. That’s quite different to many of the markets New Zealand companies are working in and it's a big factor where we get to in terms of the conclusion of the research. Where supermarkets are your predominant retail outlet you can rely on distributors to get your food or your products into a supermarket. If it's only two percent then the whole chain of getting your products into a market is quite different.
As a result, New Zealand companies need to really consider how they get their products distributed throughout India at the right end of the market. We’re not talking bulk dairy product or bulk meat but we’re talking the high value FMB or high value services. Because the retail space is so fragmented New Zealand companies need to go into India with a very defined market and marketing strategy around how they’re going to get their product known and then purchased within that market.
It's not a market where you can just sort of put your toe in the water and hope that a distributor might distribute your products. If you want to be successful in a relatively fair period of time you need to invest in marketing strategy; you can’t rely on someone else to do that for you.
There are other markets where you can put a toe in the water and maybe you’ll sell something; India is not one of those.
In terms of the retail space – I’m not sure if we covered this elsewhere – but these people who can afford to buy our products are not necessarily buying the products themselves. They will have a household of staff and they will say to the staff what they want to buy but someone else will be going out to the markets to purchase the products for them. You won’t see them unless they’re choosing for a status reason or perhaps just a social reason to go one of the high-end supermarkets. They’re not going to necessarily be out doing the purchasing themselves, it will be their household staff.
The fifth one is that there is very little awareness of New Zealand food and beverage products. A lot of times New Zealanders think everyone knows what we sell and what we make, but there just simply isn’t a great awareness of New Zealand products.
Often one of the best ambassadors of New Zealand products are the visitors that come here and go back home. One of the things that should concern us is that they go back home understanding that we’re not very good at understanding vegetarianism; we’re known as selling beef and lamb. That’s not necessarily a good thing in the Indian market given the size of the vegetarian community. So, in terms of their knowledge of us what they do isn’t always very helpful in terms of selling into that market.
Number six: that Indian consumers have an overwhelming preference for fresh products which makes it important to have an efficient supply chain. Someone was explaining to me that when they go to the market to buy kiwifruit the fruit store owner will hand you each piece fruit for you to actually touch and be satisfied that that’s the one that you want to buy. Being able to touch, feel and taste and experience the product is very, very important; which is possibly why you’re not necessarily buying on line - you will want it bought from the market. Which is similar what’s said in seven.
Number eight: smaller trial products. Smaller packaging to trial products is very, very important; not just to trial products but because of the type of market that it is. If I take chocolate as an example: in a country which is hot, in a country which has a diverse population, selling large (and I’ll Cadbury as an example) Cadbury blocks of chocolate is completely indulgent and a pure luxury because you’re not necessarily going to eat that whole block of chocolate; well you’re not meant to eat that whole block of chocolate in one sitting. Those who sell smaller blocks of chocolate are more likely to sell them because people will buy them; they know they can consume them before they melt and that’s just a more effective way of selling products.
Digestive biscuits; they don’t sell the full packet of digestive biscuits, they sell them in six or seven. You won’t find a digestive packet like that in a western country. Shampoo; one use shampoo. Everything is sort of boiled down to very small packs. Lindt chocolate already has those single servings and those sorts of things sell particularly well.
So, small packaging; that’s why fruit sells well ‘cause you can buy one piece, you don’t have to buy six or 12 of them.
International products do require customisation to work in that market. I think when we were talking to the customer managers someone mentioned an example in New Zealand of a packet of biscuits. There’s a packet of milk biscuits which has a picture of a cow on it. Milk biscuits would sell well in India but if you’re going to sell something like milk biscuits with a picture of a cow on it the inference in that could be that there’s milk in the biscuits but it could also mean that there’s beef in the biscuits. So that’s a particular type of packaging that you would want to change and put some other imagery rather than a cow on the packaging. That’s an example of both the size but also the way you present a package needs to reflect the market properly.
Number ten: the full potential of online shopping has not been realised; I will be but currently at the moment, unlike China where online shopping has really taken off in a very significant way, it hasn’t taken off in India yet. Even the super wealthy strive to get a bargain; it's inbuilt in India. They want to feel that they’ve come away with 20 percent extra or one free. That’s a very, very important part of I guess the bargaining culture that you have in India. Don’t assume that just because someone is wealthy that they’ll just pay through the nose; they’ll want to feel that they’ve got something extra for that.
So those were the key findings. For us the big focus us around number four; is that New Zealand companies need to invest some money in making sure they have a marketing strategy in order to be successful in India.
I guess this expands a little bit on some of the earlier. We talked about the 26 million very, very wealthy, the very top part of that pyramid. There’s also the middle class and not quite so very, very wealthy, just very wealthy, is again another large group of consumers. When I look at the success of some produce companies that have been there – and we’re going to talk about Zespri as a case study who are now selling a million trays between Mumbai and Delhi – they’re not just aiming at the very top end consumer, they’re moving down into the next category as well. I might add that they’re selling in market stores though; that’s where they’re selling their million trays – not through supermarkets.
I think the important think also about this is that whilst we see the population of India increasing we’re not looking at trying to market our high value services and F&B to 1.2 billion people; we need to carve that down to that smaller group that can afford to purchase it.
India is a massive continent and it's no unlike marketing to the US. You really choose if you’re going to sell in Los Angeles or New York or Seattle; you’ve got to choose your market. In India that’s even more important. If you take the population of Mumbai of 18 million, the population of Mumbai on its own that’s a massive city. How many of those are in the super wealthy? Probably around ten percent of those at the 1.8 million or maybe it's slightly more because it's a massive city. But when we look at the successful companies that have managed to crack the Indian market they’ve tailored their products and they’ve chosen a couple of cities, or they might just choose Mumbai to start with and then move to Delhi and Bangalore but they’re not going to India, they’re going to a particular city state or city market to start with.
The mega cities; whilst we do have the mega cities that we all know – Bangalore, Mumbai, Delhi – there are a number of emerging cities that are already significantly larger than New Zealand’s whole population. These are the green ones – Jalandhar, Chandigarh, Kanpur, Indira, and [19.03] – those cities again are growing very, very fast as well. So, the number of individual markets within India that can be focused on is phenomenal. But if you were to say to us that you’re looking to do all of them then we would counsel you about making sure that goes down to starting off with one or two cities only. And also, of course, it's a very large geography that you’re talking about as well.
In terms of looking at the consumer profiles of those people within the top of that pyramid, it's a little more segregated in India than it is in New Zealand. When we’ve talked about this research with some people in New Zealand they’ve been a little concerned about this slide because it's not necessarily politically correct, because it does segment different parts of society.
If you’re looking at targeting the market in India you need to understand how segmented that is in order to be able to ensure that you’re product is being marketed to the right part of it. There’s no particular order here. If I start with the traditional business man and it is the traditional man; it’s not a business person because they are men. Very traditional, they travel, have a taste for international food, they’re members of exclusive clubs. This is the crowd that is drinking large volumes of whisky and paying an enormous price for it. It doesn’t go unnoticed because when we hold functions in India we’ll put out the New Zealand wine and the beer and the juice and the water. We will go through as many bottles of whisky as we will bottles of wine at an Indian function; so whisky is the drink of choice.
There’s a long way to go for New Zealand wine to be marketed in India; it's not the thing that your Indian older businessman will go to. It's not too fingers of Scotch either. It is watered down is it? Not too much.
I’ll go back to the top. You then have your young corporate male and this is the person in that 27 to 40-year age group. They’ve studied abroad, they’ll be from wealthy families often, they will consider themselves to be very progressive and very liberal in their world view. They are very, very brand conscious; it's not unlike the China market. The Louis Vuitton’s, the Chanel’s and the Dior’s all available. If they haven’t bought them overseas they’re also available in those markets. So very brand conscious and very ambitious and quite driven to be successful and status is a very, very important thing within India. Status not only by your job title and where you live and what you do, but also by what you wear, what brand you’re carrying, what food you’re eating and what wine or what-have-you you drink. So, the status around a brand is very, very important.
Then the home maker socialite; again, a very politically incorrect class but the reality of its traditionally in India once a woman starts a family, even if they’re from a very wealthy family and will have staff at home, it's more accepted to stay at home than it is to be in the workplace. In fact, the feedback we got with one of the staff in my office based in Dubai who’d been travelling when she was pregnant and is only taking maternity leave, some people that we were dealing with were quite shocked that her husband was making her do. We’ve got to understand that whilst in the New Zealand frame of reference it's not a path we go down, within the Indian frame of reference you have a large group of very upwardly mobile, well-educated, socially active women as a consumer base who are at home. They are the ones that will be managing the household staff that they have and a lot of the decisions around what sort of food they buy. So, they’re the ones that are deciding they want Whittaker’s chocolate and Zespri kiwifruit and they want Whitestone cheese or they want a New Zealand wine and instructing the person to go out and buy them.
So that’s a class of people that we need to be able to reach through the right media in order to excite them about New Zealand produce and services.
Then there’s the young corporate female who again is highly educated, has travelled, knows what they want, just like the young corporate male is brand conscious and status conscious, but see themselves as a role model and also sees themselves as helping to change the face of India. That’s another class of person that reads a different type of magazine, will be looking at different types of TV or other internet channels in terms of getting their feedback and driving what it is that they choose to buy.
The distribution channel within India is very different. As I said two percent are the supermarket retail. What are the rest? They’re small family run outlets with fresh produce and processed foods. Very often these are generational owned outlets; so the father, the grandfather has owned them. When it comes to the fruit store they’ll ring the customer and say, “What fruit would you like me to put aside, is it your usual order?” So, it's quite a relationship between the owner of the family run outlet and the consumer. So, the consumer’s family has probably been purchasing from the same store for generations as well.
Then the street vendors; probably the greatest percentage of street vendors. Again, stocking fresh produce and then there’s the supermarkets which is only two percent. We see that growing. One of the limitations though to supermarkets in a city like Mumbai, which is the most expensive property market in the world, to build a supermarket or to build a mall in order to make that financially viable the cost of the land and buildings is so high that the business case for that just doesn’t stack up when everyone is still buying from the family run outlets and the stalls. So, in the current large cities that dictates against building more and more supermarkets.
In the new smart cities that India is building we’ll probably see a change in that dynamic because there’s already the land being put aside in order to build malls and to have supermarkets. So, we’re going to see a change in that. But when you’re looking at Bangalore, Mumbai and Delhi the cost of taking a block of land and putting a mall or a supermarket on it is prohibitive. I haven’t got figures on that; I’m not sure what it would put on the premium for a shop but it's huge.
Then you have speciality high end premium stores that are very much a status thing. The food is very expensive to buy in there. One of those would be Nature’s Baskets. Then there’s online shopping. It is happening but again because you can go to a market for many of the hours of the day and because you’ve often got staff who are going to go down and do that for you anyway, unlike in New Zealand where we’re so relieved you can get Countdown online to deliver to your home, there’s not that driving force around having that happen because you’ve got domestic staff who will actually do all of that for you.
So that’s one of the dynamics within the market which slows down the online taking place.
Is the speciality high ends stores, are they chains or are individually owned?
A little bit of both. Natures Basket is a chain but how many?
You’ve got to know where they are. At the moment, Natures Basket for instance would love to have a New Zealand week but we don’t have sufficient New Zealand product in Natures Basket to be able to do that yet.
Beyond the chains are there a lot of private individual premium stores?
The independence as was indicated before.
And were serviced by wholesalers.
Or when you go to the market you might purchase it from the market, as in the wholesale market. It's not a shop like we’d have here it just gets delivered to you; you might have someone that will go down to the market and buy the fruit and bring it in there.
Places like [28.26] in Mumbai which is huge. I don’t know how many acres of pallets but they were all like street vendors type inside.
Mike [28.42] and I’ve been there nearly a year. When we first went there we lived in the Middle East. We used to go into supermarkets. When we were there we found the supermarket, which is Natures Basket in [28.53] and we’d go there. Now we’d never go there; never go near it and my kids don’t want to go near it. We’ve converted over and we do what everyone else does and we buy [29.03]. And so we go to all these little [29.07] and we buy all sorts of stuff off the street.
Even some of the [29.13] stalls [29.14] all the important stuff. And they have maybe such a format that their stuff is quite a lot cheaper than [29.26] product and that’s actually to get the customer; so it's like a personalised touch to compete against our supermarket chains. Like we have [29.34]…
‘Cause you might be looking at something and they’ll say, “What are you after?” So, I’m after pasta sauce and they’ll say, “What brand would you like? Haven’t we got your brand?” You mention the brand and they’ll call you a couple of days later and say, “We’ve got your brand.”
One of the campaigns that Zespri had in Mumbai, knowing that the street vendors are the ones that are basically telling the purchaser what they want to buy or they’re ringing up and saying, “Would you like your regular order?” is they did the sort of McDonald’s approach of would you like a kiwifruit with that, a Zespri kiwifruit with that?” They found that the spike in sales of kiwifruit was very significant and then even after the campaign, once they’d educated the consumer that kiwifruit tasted good with all their other campaign, then it became part of the regular pattern. It's an expensive fruit but often it will be just buying one kiwifruit and they’ll be quite proud of the fact that they’ve got that there. But that involved a campaign where the street vendors themselves were incentivised to call their customers and ask them if they would buy a kiwifruit. But it's very much a focus on the street vendors.
We talked a little bit before about perceptions of New Zealand. We’re seen as a source of healthy, nutritional products. So, the 100 percent pure, we’re very agriculturally advanced and highly productive. I guess ‘cause of cricket we’re seen as a sport and nature loving people. However, we’re strongly associated with meat products like lamb and beef and that is not necessarily a positive because of that strong association.
We’re a destination for higher education. India is the second largest source of overseas students here.
Popular tourist destination; I think there’s about 38,000 Indians come to New Zealand a year; so whilst it's popular it's just a tiny, tiny fraction of the Indian tourism market.
We’re also seen as the same as Australia but nicer; or comparatively friendlier. But that’s often the case outside of New Zealand. We’re simply seen as basically like Australia.
We’re seen as an exporter of farming, dairy and edible produce, safe and secure, peace loving, similar to India in terms of our cultural interests and cricket. Large forests of farmland, vast stretches of mountains. Images associated with the kiwi bird, lamb, greenery and movies.
So, it's a fairly sort of traditional view of New Zealand; a romantic view yes. But I think it also shows it's very shallow in terms of really what their understanding of New Zealand or New Zealanders are. I’m often asked, both in India and in the Middle East, “We like New Zealanders but we’re not quite sure why.” We’re sort of seen as the Canadians of the Southern Hemisphere and that’s nice but all it does is it allows you to have a conversation. They’re not starting from the premise that we want New Zealand Products or even understanding exactly what we sell.
We’re probably in the F&B industry ahead of everywhere else. You won’t see innovation or services other than education out there. The fact that our balance of trade with India is the most balanced out of all markets; most markets F&B is sort of the 80 percent. F&B is equal with services, high spec manufacturing, aviation and all of those areas that New Zealand exports in; so F&B is actually quite small with India relative to all of our other markets. I guess it's good from a balance portfolio perspective but it's quite out of kilter with every other market.
What this tells us though is that the fourth point on the things that we’ve learnt is that if you’re wanting to sell a high value New Zealand product you have to educate that Indian market if you’re going to be successful in selling it, ‘cause they aren’t sitting there waiting for it. They already have something else that’s filling that spot and so you need to convince them that you exist and that they need to have your product and it's going to help with their status, it's going to help them be healthy, it's going to add something to their life and their wellbeing. If you don’t do that you’re just a very, very small voice in a very noisy environment; because they’re certainly not waiting for us.
Before I talk about Zespri there’s some other good examples of marketing strategies and Audi is a good example. Audi only goes for the premiere market. They were wanting to get their slice of the Indian market and they thought that the Audi A1 and A3 would be the right thing for that market. I think its A1 comes as a hatchback. They couldn’t sell the A1 in India because it was a hatchback. In India, a hatchback is seen as a delivery vehicle and it wasn’t a status vehicle. So, they created for the Indian market and A1 sedan. Do we have the A1s in New Zealand? It's the smallest Audi you can get. Well they’ve created for India an A1 sedan and the sales went through the roof, simply because it was a sedan and not a hatchback. That’s a great example of looking at what does a customer actually want and why aren’t they buying what I’m squeezing into the market. They didn’t want to get the hatchback because it was seen as a delivery vehicle, but they would buy the A1 as a sedan.
And it's a good example of a company that decided to change its model and create a new product and just for that market; and for that market it's big enough to be able to allow you to change that. But it's a good example of taking a product, asking what the market wants and then delivering what they’re demanding; rather than saying we’ve got an A1 hatchback that’s successful elsewhere so we’ll make it successful here.
Is the buying pattern generally the same in the cities?
You mean in every city or the same in the all the mega cities?
Sales for apples; is there a big difference in apples for example? Is it just the fact that logistically it's just a nightmare, rather than actually they’re all generally similar in what they’re purchasing [36.16]?
It does come down to what’s available in the particular cities, but rather than me answering that, Kevin do you have a view on whether the buying powers are the same.
Each city has its own [36.27] more towards the business community; the people will be like moving around, they have time, they can go in the evening if they want. At Mumbai it's more towards a mixed culture [36.39] you’ll find people shopping only at the weekends; going around shopping malls and getting [36.46]. A lot of the time [36.47] culturally all cities are different; Mumbai’s more cosmopolitan, Delhi still is [36.55] again cosmopolitan but towards the southern [36.58].
There are also things on local diet; the taste is quite significant between the north and the south.
In India, we see that every 300 kilometres the language and the diet [37.12].
Which is why taking a city and understanding what the market is in that city and then responding to that, rather than thinking you’ll cover the whole place.
Last night as an example I was quite shocked. There’s quite a famous surgeon here in Auckland, he comes from the south, he comes from [37.32] where I spend a lot of time as well, and he was telling me he was lucky enough a couple of weeks ago to meet Prime Minister Modi. He couldn’t speak to Modi because he doesn’t speak Hindi. I was quite shocked. I thought most people of his generation and his level would be able to speak. He can sort of understand but he wasn’t strong enough in Hindi. Got to speak to Prime Minister Modi and he was really embarrassed and felt quite disgraced and he thought that Modi would be able to speak English. So, I think that’s an example of that diversity; that sometimes the differences outweigh the similarities.
So, other people here are already doing business. Do you see a difference in the product between the major cities? You do?
In what way?
Well in terms of the buying power. We’re mainly concentrated in Mumbai for reasons as you’ve suggested; that establish yourself there and then [38.36] eventually. But it all comes back to the method of distribution and I say that with a bit of a grimace because Natures Basket is one our major presale clients, where they may order three pizzas and I mean units, they may do that multiple times per week; hence you have all these little tuk-tuk trucks rushing around all over the place delivering things. So, there’s no such thing really as a holding storage space within these markets. They don’t have central distribution as we know it. I’m sure, whether I’m right or not, but I’m absolutely confident that that’ll come the minute Walmart and the likes start operating there; they’ll be forced into doing something.
There’s no question that the distribution and logistics in India are a major problem for India. The percentage of food that is wasted before wholesale is a frightening percentage, given that there’s also poverty and starvation in India - the amount of food that doesn’t even reach the table. Whereas in New Zealand we have a high percentage of food wastage after retail; it's just thrown away by restaurants and by us.
Sorry to interrupt, but that’s certainly exacerbated by the retailer’s attitude towards shelf life. They will not recognise anything that’s only got about four months to go. They don’t want to know about it. If it's on their shelves come and take it away, “I don’t want that in my store.” Similarly, if you’ve got product sitting in your distribution warehouse that is of that level or that point forget it; no one will buy it.
That’s where the labelling changes around the food in India, which are a challenge, are really designed around that desire to have fresh. The freshness of the product is the driver and that’s what’s of supreme importance to everyone. But that’s then exacerbated by the fact that there’s so much wastage well before wholesale and that’s because if you’ve got a truck load of tomatoes that you’re trying to get from the farm in India to the wholesale, by the time it's gone across a very rugged road unrefrigerated to get there, most of its tomato sauce by the time it arrives. That’s a real challenge that the Indian farmer has and they regret that they’re importing tomatoes because so much of their own fruit is ruined.
Just on that; it's really interesting. Daljit and I went to Hyderabad [41.10]. Our last visit was to the guys running the international airport in Hyderabad, and Hyderabad is trying to set itself up as a distribution centre. If you go there the airport looks pretty normal but out the back is this huge industrial area and a lot of it is dedicated towards cold storage. So, they’ve seen that if they’re going to try and get aeroplanes in with produce from here and other places they’re going to have to cool it and keep it refrigerated before they can be distributed. So, we got this big sales pitch didn’t we, around how many cold storage facilities they were going to set up. They’re still struggling to get people to come in and build it; so, it's an opportunity for other New Zealand companies. But just interesting how the thinking is changing for some of these infrastructure providers.
That’s the thing I was talking to Tony earlier before we got underway here, that it comes down particularly with fresh produce, a lot of it comes down to the handling or the lack of good handling; and that’s certainly evidenced if you go into the markets. There’s a whole new industry waiting and begging to be taken hold of and we’ve got a lot of that activity here that we could take up there.
I just wanted to take a couple of very quick case studies. Zespri have done particularly well in this market after a slow start. They’re sort of a cross between a commodity and sort of a retail producer so they’re sort of a good example. So, they initially launched Zespri in 2010 but they started off with a marketing campaign and they started off with four distributors; so they didn’t just rely on the distributor because in India there wasn’t sufficient coverage of kiwi or knowledge of kiwifruit to be able to simply just put it out there with a distributor; no one was going to buy it.
They also had to understand that it was not going to be sold to the supermarkets but had to be sold through street vendors. So, they carried out campaigns and schools and supermarkets about the benefits of kiwifruit. By 2011 they got to 120 tonnes. By today they’ve got to more than one million trays of Zespri. One of the key things in there was not only doing the broad sort of BTL campaigns around the health benefits of kiwifruit, as I said before it also came down to targeting the extra street vendors and incentivising them to sell. That’s quite a campaign, ‘cause you’re not just going through a number of supermarkets but going right down to a number of street vendors.
So, they chose a particular area; and what was the incentive for them Daljit?
I think one is they would get sort of lucky [43.59] coupons when they buy the fruit so whenever they buy it they get a coupon and they put it in a tray and they get gifts out of it. The second one was on the basis of retaining the client, that was one of the benefits because once they realised the client was actually buying the fruit after the call-up you were getting repetitive orders.
So, an actual prize or value to the street vendor for increasing that. And now they’ve expanded to tier two in three cities and they’re selling a million trays. That’s been of green and kiwifruit and they’ve now started the Sun Gold; the Sun Gold’s a little more difficult in the market, mainly because of its shelf life, isn’t it? It's a much softer fruit and the green is quite hardy. But they’ve only done that because they’ve had a campaign; they haven’t done that by accident. They’ve also done that because they’ve got actual people on the ground in India. So, the relationships with the distributors and getting out there and seeing the street vendors; making sure that it's their product and not a Chilean one with a New Zealand Zespri, or the Italian ones with the New Zealand Zespri on it, because you can certainly taste the difference.
Zespri has gone a step ahead now. [45.20] So they have opened up an outlet [45.42] where kids can come and play and have a [45.45]. They will pick up the kiwifruit from the tray, check it, [45.50] check on the quality, put it in the pack, pack it up, seal it and then gift wrap. So just more awareness about the kiwifruit. What they’ve realised is kids can also [46.01] because once they ask for a product the mom’s definitely do want to get it for them. So, they’ve gone back a step targeting the kids.
Just another point; it's really interesting with Zespri, that this is really great and that you can feel the demand of the market. They’ve done a really good job with the demand. But I’ve noticed, when we’ve talked to some of you, it then starts putting pressure on your supply chain, because all of a sudden, the market’s saying, “Give me fruit, give me fruit,” and it comes back to how much fruit have you got, how much can you squeeze into your supply chain. It's just interesting on the ground talking to the Zespri guys – Ratesh who used to be part of us – just around those pressures now to get the fruit on the ships in the containers and landed hopefully and distributed out to the suppliers.
Like most markets, it's not forgiving if they’re expecting it and there’s a six-week delay before it's back on the shelf. Just want to play for you the radio jingle that Zespri are using.
Another example of Spanish oil and you’ll see it's a much longer chain; southern 2003. By 2006 they’d only done 1400 tonnes of olive oil. It was a product that again was not known to the market; it's largely driven by ghee and butter in terms of getting that sort of oil. So, they obviously had to rethink exactly how they were going to be successful. It wasn’t until after they’d been there for a number of years that they actually put together a campaign and then they were able to increase that to 11,000 tonnes by ’14 and ’15.
Their campaign had to involve, not just talking about the health benefits but getting celebrity chefs, advertisements on taxis, quite a significant push of olive oil throughout the market. It also involved looking across brands and saying we need to push olive oil as a product category rather than pushing a particular brand’s olive oil in order to increase that in the market. Olive oil is obviously expensive, it's expensive in New Zealand but we sort of know that our market’s been educated as why you might choose olive oil over vegetable oil and they had to do that entire process in order to be able to get to the 11,000 tonnes. Having done that by the end of this year they’re expecting it to be significantly greater volume of olive oil.
The reason we put this up here is to sort of show that you can be in the market a long time and not be successful until you actually do that campaign to educate the market about your product; why it's beneficial and why people need to have it; and then it gets into that success category.
Also, wanted to show you the particular advertisement that they have for olive oil and how they’re reaching the India market.
You notice there’s no branding on the olive oil; it's just promoting olive oil itself and then you’ll go into the store and get the olive oil.
The other feature [50.17] is those campaigns use celebrity chefs and that’s been a learning for me; it's just the power of celebrities in marketing campaigns. I know some of you have also got celebrity chefs that you’re looking at; they can be really powerful can’t they.
It helps with the status of the product; not just F&B but F&P Appliances uses celebrity chefs to promote the use of their ovens and kitchen equipment. I guess it gets you onto TV and puts the brand behind the brand. It's an important part of the marketing campaign.
I’m not going to go through this; this is in the booklet that’s been handed out. I guess the main thing I want people to be thinking about is when looking at being successful and launching a high value F&B products into the market, it's a serious decision to choose India as your market. Having made that decision if you’re not wanting to spend the money on publicising to that segment of the market you’ve chosen about your brand to make it successful, the chances of you being successful are much lower, if not negligible.
We’ve seen a lot of companies who visit once a year saying their distributor is not any good and they want to change distributors. It's not necessarily about changing distributors. That might be a part of it but is generally because the market doesn’t know that it needs your product. A distributor who’s selling 500 or 1000 products isn’t going to push your product unless there’s an incentive in there for the distributor to do that.
If they see your product being advertised because you’ve got your marketing strategy out there and there’s a demand for, who was saying, they just basket ring up for three things at a time several times a week, that’s the thing that’s going to drive them to push your product because they can see it actually moving, but first of all you’ve got to make it move.
So, what we’re encouraging companies to do when looking at their India market is in addition to sitting down with us and strategizing over where in India should I be looking at, to also invest in putting together that market strategy. If you’re prepared to do that then what NZTE is able to do is to work with you to be able to deliver on that market strategy; and with the distributor and it gives you that much greater chance of success in the market.
The cost of doing the marketing exercise will be as great or small as you’re wanting to spend; you can spend millions obviously and get it on every billboard in Mumbai if you want. But generally, you’re not looking for billboard advertising; you’re looking for the right outlets to be able to get the top end consumer; whether that’s in magazines that are in airline lounges or whether it's in the magazines that the senior businessmen read. But getting that advice on where to place your advertisement and where to promote your product that’s what we see as quite key in order to be able to get there. Otherwise relying on getting there by accident is a fairly costly and often disappointing process to go down.
Part of that is going to be these sorts of things; maximising country of origin value. You will see that Zespri does not normally use New Zealand in their brand but three times in that radio ad they talk about New Zealand Zespri kiwifruit. Prominence is such a big issue in many, many markets now and it is in India, and so getting that New Zealand brand out there is important.
Promoting the attributes; the example given here is the olive oil is sold in a small bottle that’s only 10 rupees which is 25 New Zealand cents. So again, they’ve taken that product and they’ve put it in a bottle that’s small enough that’s going to be able to sell within the market.
Localisation: looking at your particular product and providing the market with the recipes that it can be cooked in. I know that [54.27] is doing that with avocados and Zespri have done that and obviously, the olive oil people did it as well; they took traditional Indian dishes and explained and explained how you can use olive oil in those and the health benefits of using olive oil rather than ghee.
Designing promotional strategies for festival demand: so Lindt create special products for Diwali and Holly and they sell the hotcakes. It's the biggest part of their sales annually is around Diwali because they’ve produced a chocolate that fits for that.
Brands ambassadors with celebrity chefs or other key people: you probably can’t afford a cricketer over there.
Trials for unfamiliar products: that comes down to educating the market as to why it is that they need to buy that. But the details of those are in the booklet.
We’d love to be in a position where we could take a Natures Basket or a supermarket over there and say “Let's do a New Zealand week…
We discussed that last year. In fact, I had a meeting initially with Daljit last year; we just couldn’t get enough product.
We don’t have enough product in there yet and yet the market would love it but it's not there. And then of course if you’re going to have the product we’ve also then got to be able to deliver the product effectively and continually after that. But that’s one of the aims that we would like to be at where we can run a New Zealand food week, but if we haven’t got a regular supplier…
We’ve got roughly another 100 skews that I’ll be bring over the course of the next few months and taking up there which [55.55]
Keen to have.
And stocking but we’ve got to get that distribution right first.
And your experience up there?
Start small and think big.
Yeah take your time, take your time. I think it's working it out and I think the insights that you get as you progress and start thinking of adding more value to refining your strategy as you go along. You never have enough money to put behind your product. The cool chain is a challenge [56.42]. Understanding your consumer and how you can influence them I think is probably the big lesson.
And how have you been able to influence the consumer? Or is that the challenge?
It's a challenge I think. We’ve been fortunate working closely with your team up there; it's helped a lot because we’re getting insights that we would not normally get from infrequent visits to the market or reading. I think we’ve sort of taken a longer-term approach. We’re looking at a five-year strategy rather than a one year strategy. Being prepared to be flexible and change those things that are not working I guess are the things that resonate with me at the moment.
Cause what you’ll see, even with as you say a five-year strategy, Zespri there’s was a five-year strategy. I look at the olive oil and it was 12 years before they were making sales at the right level. We’re often hearing that with companies, it's been a decade. So Zespri have done very well to get where they got to in five years.
Was there a question down there?
Yeah, I’ve got two questions: first of all is there like a landing pad for going to India? For example, like Malaysia there’s a large population of Indian communities; would that be a good way of I guess testing out what it is before going to India committing more resources?
I think it becomes a bit difficult [58.08]. In India, you have people who have probably lived their whole life in one city and then moved to the other city. But then what happens in Malaysia is you already have a population who have been living there for years. [58.24] like if I come to New Zealand and I have to go to an Indian restaurant I don’t like the food, I tell them “Make it Indian hot.” [58.33] you will have it. That’s how it is. If you consider Malaysia as a landing pad it may not probably work there because it's a completely different market.
What was your second question?
My second question: what influences Indian consumers have to its neighbouring countries; so like for example Pakistan. Because in China, like in the north East Asian markets, the cost of the [59.02] the popular culture that makes a huge difference to consumers tends whether it's an F&B fashion. And like through Bollywood is there such a trend?
I think Pakistan is the wrong choice because they’re at war with each other; and so they would like to think that they don’t influence each other. But the [59.22] from India is massive; so the influence if I think where I live, every 90 percent of the Indians I meet are from one state, from [59.30]. I think it does influence other surrounding countries but then the majority of the Indian population of course stays in India. Bollywood, definitely. It would be great to have a Bollywood actor hold up some Whitakers chocolate or some Avanza avocado but that would break your budget because we’re some of the most expensive movie stars in the world; far more expensive than getting a Hollywood actor because their market is enormous. It extends across the entire region.
One great promotional tool would be to use Bollywood but don’t at all underestimate the cost of using Bollywood. It would be far better than a celebrity chef; if you could get one of those guys.
[1.00.32] Master chef guys.
But if you get a Bollywood person it would be fantastic.
I was just wondering, there was a lot of excitement when Modi was elected around liberalisation and opening up of the market. Is that actually happening?
Not yet. I liken it a little bit like to Obama when he became President; he got the Nobel Peace Prize within the first three months which was probably the worst thing that could happen. Modi, there are so many things on his priority list. He’s going to need two terms of government to be able to achieve that. There’s been a recent state election in Baha state where the Modi party is completely trashed; I think the percentage was so small wasn’t it; it was five percent or something like that and they ran a very vigorous campaign, quite an aggressive campaign against the opposition but the opposition came in with a far greater majority than any of the polls had expected. Because everyone had this great hope for what Modi was going to do but the job of doing it is very, very complex with a very, very democratic nation where the mood of the voters really dictates what you’re able to get away with.
So, the level of transformation that he’s going to need to do is massive and it is going to take a number of years to achieve that. So even when it comes to looking at free trade agreements that’s not high on his agenda. Higher on his agenda is protecting employment and keeping the employment levels higher; attracting foreign investment into India; the ‘Make India’ campaign is very, very big so if you’re if you’re a manufacturer wanting to get goods into India that’s a problem, because ‘Making India’ is a very, very big campaign in order to boost employment and skill levels.
So, I think when you look at what Modi is wanting to do you’ve got to have a horizon that expands; it's not going to be a quick fix. And even when we look at our free trade agreement back in 2011 when it was first mooted under the previous government. I don’t know where we got the idea the whole thing was going to happen within two years. That two years has passed.
It's not my job to forecast when we’ll have a free trade agreement but I can’t see the New Zealand free trade agreement being up there with some of those other key economic indicators.
So, what he’s had to do is stabilise the rupee which had devalued enormously. I think he’s got so many things on his priority list – is that a fair summary? I think he wants to be able to liberalise the market but you can’t do that overnight.
I think for us, as many of you know really well as I’m learning, the machinery of government, the machinery of getting things done is iron clad. So, to try and make some of those processes, like border processes, to get them to change is going to take a hell of a lot of work. We’re going to have roll the sleeves up and get into those layers right, ‘cause we have to build [1.03.38].
Also, there’s not necessarily a belief that their system’s overly bureaucratic. We look at our system of ease of doing business and what we’re second in the world for, and that’s what we expect. When we go off and say it's hard doing business we’re starting from the best in the world. They understand their systems so well; so they don’t necessarily see it as overly bureaucratic because they understand it. But talking with one New Zealand company that set up there, they had to get 800 licences in order to operate in their particular business. I mean that’s mind boggling and he said he couldn’t name 790 of them but that was how many licences were required in order to establish his business.
It might have been a function that I was at with the former Indian High Commissioner here who in response to the question about red tape in India, he himself stood up and said, “Well it's not that bad, we know how we do business.”
That’s one of the problems that they’re not necessarily trying to fix because they know how it works; so it's an interesting dilemma for us.
It's interesting; just look a few months back we had a major scandal with Lester products and they were just changing their food regulations but nobody really understands how comprehensive and how challenging this is. I’m involved with the major Indian poultry processing company. Within four weeks I had to redevelop 40 products because they all got declined not because we didn’t follow the rules, we followed the rules, but they couldn’t read them and [1.05.17] does have challenging regulations.
Yeah. Food regulations and labelling it's a huge challenge. Unfortunately, the answer is we need to change the labels to meet them. New Zealand isn’t big and ugly enough to be able to say, “No that’s not acceptable.” That’s one of the challenges that we’ve all got.
Does Modi have any focus on trying to standardise state to state and just trying to make even the commerce between the different states [1.05.51].
I think ideally his party would win elections in a range of states and you could go around and do it that way, but when you get a swing of 95 percent against you in [1.06.03] state, that state’s not going to agree to change it. It involves getting the same party in a very complex federal system to go ahead and regularise everything like that.
Trying to standardise the provincial taxes at the moment aren’t they but they’re getting nowhere because each state…
Each state is making money out of the taxes.
Modi is trying to make money out of [01.06.32] too?
So again, on your list of priorities he’s got to work out what he needs. His number one from what I can see in terms of dealing with foreign countries is getting FDI. They’re not an export driven nation but they need new money and it's got to come in through foreign direct investment. And to do that though they’re going to have loosen some of the rules and regulations about owning property and then repatriating profits. But he needs to get some sort of foreign investment, foreign income, and that will come in not only through remittances but through foreign direct investment. And of course, he is getting that from a number of the Gulf States and Europe are putting large sums of money on the table for infrastructure development.
But it's not unlike New Zealand; to build a major road, or rail or logistics hub, it involves council processes and municipal projects that are quite mind boggling. We can’t complain too much. How long have we been waiting for the western ring root to finish so we can actually get to the airport without going through a traffic light? That’s our own red tape and processes that we go through and also lack of finance I guess. They have that struggle but it's even worse than here. But I think it's a long way coming.
Getting back to the vital 26 million consumers, how well do we understand the decision makers? So, wealthy household is it the wife that selects and chooses the brands that she wants to buy and sends the household staff off to buy? Does the household staff then negotiate or do they have some laxity in what they [1.08.22]? Would the housemaid select the ice-cream?
If someone comes in from overseas and says, “I want a particular wine, or I want this,” that instruction will come through from whether it's the male or the housewife. The housewife probably has more control over the normal food basket; luxury items could be anyone in the family. But it is a maid or housekeeper going down to do the purchasing and they will again barter. But so would the householder if they went down. But they’ll be told what brand to buy very often.
I think as Kevin, or someone said, if they haven’t go the brand the shop staller will go and get it in a couple of days.
It's quite important in terms of the marketing strategy of how you get to that particular decision maker and I’m reading that it's largely paper, magazines and newspaper rather than digital media.
It's a mixture; be a mixture. But yes, the householder has to come home and say, “I want a particular type of watch,” or “I want to have a particular type of suit,” or “I want to eat a particular type of food,” and then the household staff will go and get that.
I find at this stage of the report that the research that Neilson did there was a hell of a lot of analysis; just pages and pages of data and information. So, if customers want to get into that level of detail we’ve got it there and people like Daljit can [1.10.06].
The whole report is available on the website, so you can go in there and dive into the detail of it, if you’ve got particular questions.
Including the Neilsons….
Just going back to the question about the [1.10.21] one of the key criteria for the top end and they’re defined formally by the Indian government as A and A+, but the first criteria that I’ve always seen is international travel. I can’t remember the criteria but the rate of international travel I think is once a month. So, you’re dealing with people who are in Europe all the time or in the US all the time and the ones that I come across know their French wine, they know sort of F&B from different parts of the world so they’re very well educated. So, a lot of us are competing with European brands because they are very brand conscious. As Clayton said before it's the Louis Vuitton, you’re dealing with that type of level.
And Lindt is very popular. It's expensive chocolate but they’ve got the packaging down just right to the single serve thing. It's that brand awareness.
We’re seen as a honeymoon and holiday destination but not necessarily seen as the key high value food. And the other thing is that we’re seen as a meat destination; not the vegetarian destination. Somehow, we need to get across to restaurants and what have you in New Zealand if they’re genuinely vegetarian or [1.11.44] is the other one; what that actually means and how to service that part of the community; which starts down here, not necessarily up in India.
It is interesting; we’ve done this in the family, is you’ll see something like a cereal brand and you’ll think that’s from offshore but actually a lot of the brands are now resident in India and they’re being produced in India; so it's completely Indianised. But if you look at the packet it looks like it's out of the US.
Kellogg’s is a good example, isn’t it?
Kellogg’s yeah, it's one of those [1.12.14]. And you can get a clue because the pricing is usually quite cheap when it's made locally, rather than the imported stuff.
[1.12.22] is another good example.
When you actually look at the brands and look at the information on the back it's surprising the range of products that actually made in India.
You can tell straight away by looking at the MRP, the price says it all and then you can check where it's made.
Gee that’s cheap…
Yeah exactly; no wonder, it's made around the corner.
So, some of the companies have been very successful at Indianising. We had a really interesting talk to a famous Australasian food producer and they were in this dilemma about could they keep manufacturing in Australia or New Zealand or did they need to shift and completely change the ingredient mix that they were putting into their product. It's that dilemma that I know a lot of us face; is how much do we keep importing versus manufacturing.
Scale’s an important issue though; if you’re going to do incredibly well in India and the volume goes up and up and up, you do need to address the volume; can you continue to meet that and how would you do that from other markets and not just from New Zealand. But that’s a true success if you’re looking at how do we produce more? But the scale of the Indian market if you crack that well then you probably do need to start looking at manufacturing in India or finding other sources. I think it's Kiwi Gold that have got this big lump isn’t there. They’re fortunate they’ve got a high volume of fruit that they need to sell into a market like that. But most New Zealanders have got a limited supply of produce which they need to be able to at least make sure they can continue to deliver to the market.
And that’s one of the issues that we have with New Zealand; we’ve got a little bit of a reputation of stop/start. We’ll go in and then because the price is not right we’ll stop and then we want to go back in and there needs to be this five year horizon rather than stopping and starting because it's reasonably unforgiving when you pull out.
Can I just say one around Zespri? One of my first functions in Mumbai I went to this function and this chap said, “Are you from New Zealand?” and I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Listen, my apologies it must be terrible for you.” I said, “No, no I’ve really enjoyed being here.” He said, “No, no the fact that your whole nation, all of you, you’re called after a fruit, it must be so embarrassing for you.” I thought, “Well there you go, someone’s done a really good job.”
It's brilliant that they [1.14.48] it does help.
Look it does help and that’s why you’ve got to look at a marketing strategy and say is the return that investment going to be worthwhile? But you’re better to know that in day one than to get in after three years and then find that the marketing strategy is unaffordable.
Would you have any idea how much they would have thrown at that?
No I wouldn’t.
[01.15.13] because people used to get confused [01.15.30]. So that is how it started for the first [1.15.39].
But even that cost money to do.
You’re right, they’ve got a different budget. Although if you talk to Zespri they would say that they’re doing this in how many markets and so that dilutes the amount of money that you’ve got to spend. It's probably all relative; they need to sell a million trays but they’ve got millions of trays to sell as well. So, you’re right. But I guess the main point is that if you know what marketing strategy you’ve got and is that affordable. So, in other words is the return I’m going to get for spending that within that amount of time make it worthwhile then you can make that intelligent decision about whether this is the right market for you or not.
If there’s anything I can impart, because I’ve been working on and in India now for close on six years, and really it's only the last 18 months that we’ve really started to get underway. The whole process is not for the faint hearted and really whether it be negative or positive, whatever the instance is, you’ve just got to continue to look at the big picture, because the big picture really is obvious; it's huge business if you can crack it. That’s the only positive way I can get through some of these bloody days with dealing with bloody Indian bureaucracy, but we get there and it's fun though. It is fun; India is a magnificent place. A great place actually to do business.
Everyone says it's based on relationships, but again one of the reasons why we counsel companies not to do too many markets is you can’t go in once a year and think that you’ve got a relationship. When you’ve got people you’re needing to get to know you’ve got to meet with them and they want to see you. So, part of your budget I guess for getting into a country like this, is not just the marketing strategy but making sure you’ve got regular visits into the market.
I go there three or four times a year.
So, you need to be in the market and meet the people. What’s your business?
The other thing I guess with the supermarkets, I mean they’re only a small part of it…
Like two percent of 1.2 billion is not bad.
Are they looking for direct or they are still wanting to do the wholesaling or [1.18.00]?
[1.18.02] most of them do have direct and [1.18.08]. Like most people prefer to go to the wholesalers because then wholesalers have their own warehouses.
I think someone mentioned before that supermarkets themselves don’t have their own warehouses yet. The American one, Walmart, have tried and failed.
Yeah but they’re still there.
It will happen.
But they go more now at the moment on wholesale than on retail because they’re finding how tricky it is to work with.
Any other questions? Please take the opportunity to talk to Daljit, Kevin and I over a cup of tea but I just want to thank you for your attention.